Please login or register.

TinyPortal - simple content managment for SMF

News: Spring is finally here!
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Ethanol Removal Possibility?  (Read 11541 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

martyduke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 543

Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« on: May 10, 2008, 09:34:18 PM »
So, since you can test for the alcohol in a testing vessel by adding water and ending up with it removed from the fuel and absorbed by the water, couldn't you simply do the same thing on a larger scale with, say a five gallon container, and then just sump the resulting water/alcohol out of the bottom of said container?  Sort of refining it back to its original state and then using the "purified fuel" that remains. I guess you would have to come up with something to agitate it out of the fuel into the water (like shaking it when you test it).   Just thinking theoretically here, but curious. 
Marty Duke N10743 KRNT

tonyrob

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4308
  • GICE
    • The World According To Tony

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2008, 09:44:07 PM »
So, since you can test for the alcohol in a testing vessel by adding water and ending up with it removed from the fuel and absorbed by the water, couldn't you simply do the same thing on a larger scale with, say a five gallon container, and then just sump the resulting water/alcohol out of the bottom of said container?  Sort of refining it back to its original state and then using the "purified fuel" that remains. I guess you would have to come up with something to agitate it out of the fuel into the water (like shaking it when you test it).   Just thinking theoretically here, but curious. 
Marty Duke N10743 KRNT

In theory.
In practice, the fuel with the ethanol is 87 (or whatever).
After removing the ethanol it would be lower.
Also, from my reading, and I can't remember the name of it (can John jump in here?) for gas blended with ethanol they can use an inferior
gas to the non blended. So you would end up with an inferior gas of unknown octane.

Wouldn't want to fly through the mountains on that stuff.

Tony
C-GICE
Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly.
(Walmart warning label 1995)

JohnH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2125
  • I fly for fun
    • Pontiac Bonneville Club

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 05:26:35 AM »
Quote
Also, from my reading, and I can't remember the name of it (can John jump in here?) for gas blended with ethanol they can use an inferior
gas to the non blended. So you would end up with an inferior gas of unknown octane.

So far, at least here in B.C. we blend the ethanol in the same gas you would get at a non ethanol station. What they do when all gas has to be blended is anyones guess.

As for removing the ethanol......... I don't think it can be done on a small scale. It would be like trying to remove rum from coke or gin from tonic. Well actually harder than that, more like trying to remove the tint from coloured paint. ;D
John Hubbard
PA-28 - 180  (C-GSQW)
CYCD

hotrod150

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5400
  • bustin' minimums since 1995

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 07:53:22 AM »
  I belivee it's the ethanol that reduces the octane, so if you removed the ethanol it should bring the gas back up to 87. Doesn't sound very practical though.
 Do I understand correctly that Oregon is already mandatory gasohol? Is it E10 or what? And what percent dillution is Washington slated to get?

Eric
Fly low and maintain radio silence

JohnH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2125
  • I fly for fun
    • Pontiac Bonneville Club

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 08:53:29 AM »
Up here they are claiming that 87 octane gas mixed with 10% ethanol will get you 89 octane. That's what they are advertising anyway.

John Hubbard
PA-28 - 180  (C-GSQW)
CYCD

martyduke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 543

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 10:06:18 AM »
Well, I posted this same message on an Ercoupe list I belong to and one of the California Coupers  said that he is successfully doing what I mentioned since the introduction of Ethanol only blend in his area, so I guess it can be done.  I'll email him and ask how he is doing it and post his method here when he gets back to me.  As for cost, I guess you'd be giving up 10 percent volume to save around 25 percent in cost.  I've got the autogas stc, but don't think I'd find it worthwhile to me to save a few bucks.  I tried autogas awhile back and not only was it a hassle to test and haul it, I started to see problems with sloshing compound coming loose and hated the smell.
Marty

davidh

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4864
  • Wishing I was out there flying instead of surfing.

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 10:40:08 AM »
Well, I posted this same message on an Ercoupe list I belong to and one of the California Coupers  said that he is successfully doing what I mentioned since the introduction of Ethanol only blend in his area, so I guess it can be done.

I wonder if there might also be some pesky issue with the legality of doing this, too...I believe the Mogas STCs explicitly exclude fuel with alcohol in it.  But I'll leave that one to the lawyers.
David Herman
N6170T - 1965 Cessna 150E
Boeing Field, Seattle, WA

Flyunleaded

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • Fly Unleaded

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2008, 01:02:48 PM »
  I belivee it's the ethanol that reduces the octane, so if you removed the ethanol it should bring the gas back up to 87.
Ethanol has a higher octane than gasoline.  If an area is partial ethanol, the distributor puts ethanol in 87 AKI and 91 AKI and the result is about 90 and 93.  But if the whole state goes ethanol then the distributors start using "suboctane" blending gas, about 84 AKI for 87 regular.


Quote
Doesn't sound very practical though.
It is totally impractical. You have no idea how much of the ethanol phase separated and you don't know what the base blending stock is.

Quote
Do I understand correctly that Oregon is already mandatory gasohol? Is it E10 or what?
Affirmative, Oregon is mandatory E10.  Most of the state has already converted, the very eastern portion must be converted by 16 September.

Quote
And what percent dillution is Washington slated to get?
Anything the terminal wants to deliver.  The law says that at least 2% of all of the fuel sold in WA must ethanol by 1 December 2008.  Most injectors are set to 10% because that is the maximum that new car warranties allow, unless it is a flex-fuel vehicle.  The terminal gets the blending credit, so the more he blends the faster he pays for the equipment he was forced to install for these mandatory laws.  If terminals are shipping E10 in WA, then about 20% of your stations are going to be pumping E10 to meet the law.  But in reality what happens is that when a terminal converts, all of the stations served usually get the E10.  Since the Pasco, WA terminal is supplying much of NE Oregon, that area is already getting a lot of E10 deliveries.  There are reports on this list that most stations in the Spokane area are E10.  Any city that used to have an oxygenate requirement during the winter will probably be all E10 by December.  Your state director of Agriculture can take the whole state E10 by proclamation.

WA law requires the pump to be labeled.  WA law only has one exemption, aircraft use.  The boaters are sure going to be surprised.
Fly lead free on mogas:  www.flyunleaded.com

Flyunleaded

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • Fly Unleaded

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2008, 01:06:26 PM »
Well, I posted this same message on an Ercoupe list I belong to and one of the California Coupers  said that he is successfully doing what I mentioned since the introduction of Ethanol only blend in his area, so I guess it can be done.  I'll email him and ask how he is doing it and post his method here when he gets back to me. ...
You also might point out to him that it is dangerous and illegal.  Using water to force phase separation does not guarantee that all of the ethanol is separated.  If he has an STC, it does not meet the requirement of the STC, and if he doesn't have an STC, all of this makes no difference.
Fly lead free on mogas:  www.flyunleaded.com

Tom-D.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 881

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 08:21:15 PM »
"" You also might point out to him that it is dangerous and illegal.  Using water to force phase separation does not guarantee that all of the ethanol is separated.  If he has an STC, it does not meet the requirement of the STC, and if he doesn't have an STC, all of this makes no difference. ""

would you please quote the refference for your statement.

I have talked to shell refinery operators here in Anacortes and they swear that "STRIPPING" is the method used to remove alcohol from auto fuel when the wrong mixture is made.

the spray auto fuel and water 50/50 mix in to a 4 million barrel tank and allow it to set for 24 hours and drain off the water from the bottom drain until it turns to gas.

two of the operators are pilots and use this method to convert E-10 back to usable aviation fuel.

martyduke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 543

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 08:53:55 PM »
Well,  I posted this on the Ercoupe list and got this reply from one of the fellas:

 "Here is what I have been doing.
    I only put 3.5 gallons of mogas in each 5 gal plastic can.  Then when I get home I add 1 3/4 quarts of water to each can and mix / shake vigorously.  After letting them sit and settle for an hour or so I repeat the mix / shake vigorously bit then tilt each so that one corner is at a low point and wait some more.  Next I siphon the water/alcohol mixture into a 1 gallon plastic milk container until I am getting clean gasoline.  I end up with approximately 3 gallons of real unleaded / unalkied gasoline!
    After the siphoned mixture in the gallon jug settles I carefully pour the gas off the top and use it in the cars or lawnmower and toss the water-ethanol mixture.  So far I have not found a way to get the ethanol back out of the water.  If I could do that I would add it to the cars so as not to waste it.  I guess I could build a still, but I would have to be on the look out for the revenuers!
    This is a real pain but I figure the lack of leaded up plugs and stuck exhaust valves is worth it!  No stuck valves and no cleaning a spark plug ( fine wire, courtesy of the previous owner ) in over 300 hours / 2 1/2 years!   And when I have to use 100 Lotsa Lead I always add TCP.  P.S.  I am planning on building a larger rig to make things a bit easier and less time consuming.  Just pour in the mogas, pour in the water and stir!"

So, there you go if you are really upset over the "Ethanol Nightmare" (I'm not), there is a solution.  Probably not legal, but I'll leave it up to the indivdual to determine that for him/herself.
Marty

tonyrob

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4308
  • GICE
    • The World According To Tony

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 09:00:45 PM »

So, there you go if you are really upset over the "Ethanol Nightmare" (I'm not), there is a solution.  Probably not legal, but I'll leave it up to the indivdual to determine that for him/herself.
Marty

As I, and someone else (can't remember who) have already mentioned, the base gas, after the ethanol is removed can legally be grossly inferior to 87 Octane! It only has to be 87 WITH the Ethanol.
Does anyone really want to fly with inferior gas?

Tony (not for me) Roberts
Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly.
(Walmart warning label 1995)

martyduke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 543

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 04:43:24 AM »
"can legally be grossly inferior"

I'm not sure what you mean here.
Marty

Tom-D.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 881

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 07:42:23 AM »
Alcohol has a lower burn temps than regular auto fuel, it also has a lower BTU count by weight than auto fuel. thus it has a higher anti knock quality than auto fuel. so when it is removed the fuel will have a lower anti knock quality.

So when 92 oct is used and the alcohol is removed, it will have some thing less than 92 oct. with out the testing equipment needed to tell what it is, we are guessing what we will get.

JohnH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2125
  • I fly for fun
    • Pontiac Bonneville Club

Re: Ethanol Removal Possibility?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 07:47:13 AM »
Quote
the spray auto fuel and water 50/50 mix in to a 4 million barrel tank and allow it to set for 24 hours and drain off the water from the bottom drain until it turns to gas.


If you have taken even half the safety courses I have, you would understand how reading this makes me feel VERY uncomfortable.
Spraying gas, even a 50-50 mix with water, would create such a high possibility of static discharge that I have serious doubts that your information is accurate. (that part of it anyway)
John Hubbard
PA-28 - 180  (C-GSQW)
CYCD
Pages: [1] 2 3