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Author Topic: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses  (Read 2954 times)

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JeffD

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Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« on: April 05, 2013, 09:50:40 PM »
I doubt there is a positive answer for this question, but we have so many savvy folks out there I will toss out the question.

I have a 63 Cherokee 180 that is subject to the Oil Cooler Hose AD which, for aircraft with the cooler at the front of the engine, seems to require replacement every eight years....no exceptions.  My mechanic is having a fit as 8 years ago the prior owner installed "Piper Lifetime hoses" which are apparently stainless braid and upgraded fire sleeve.  Further when installed the prior owner installed them "long" so they are no where near the exhaust system which is the reason for problem.

His opinion is that there must be some way around replacing these hoses as they are not exposed to the high heat associated with the AD.

I am pessimistic, but thought I would see if anyone else out there has run across some exception.

Thanks.
Jeff Davis
KRLD
Cherokee 180 N7294W

Domenick

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 09:16:17 AM »
Have you read the AD?

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/26E143C003D4FE0D862569AC005E3501?OpenDocument&Highlight=95-26-13

It seems to me that unless you can convince the Atlanta Aircraft Certification Office on some "alternative compliance" you are stuck with replacing the hoses.  I assume the existing hoses are of the TSO-C53a, Type D, which negates the need for 100 hour inspections.

The AD specifically calls out the hose routing.  If the existing extra long hoses are routed along some other path you are already using an unapproved "alternative compliance" method.  It wouldn't hurt to contact the FAA ACO and determine if there is some other alternative compliance method or if there is some permanent compliance method.

Otherwise: http://www.aircrafthose.com/  (I've never dealt with them, but saved the link).

Have you checked out these Piper forums? All free.

Jim's Piper Cherokee Chat:
http://www.piperusers.com/ (registration)
http://members.boardhost.com/piperpilotchat/ (forum)
Pretty high noise-to-signal ratio, but you can ignore all the crap.

Roy's Cherokee Chat:
http://www.cherokeechat.org/ (registration)
http://members.boardhost.com/cherokeechat/ (forum)
Less noise and less traffic, but still very valuable.

Bart's is so-called, because Bart started it, but someone else manages it now.  It is a general Piper forum, but has a specific Cherokee sub-forum.
http://www.piperforum.com/forum.php
Domenick
PA-28-161
Snohomish, WA, Harvey Field, S43
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54098312/flying/index.html

JeffD

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 09:06:32 PM »
Thanks Domenic,

All good suggestions and I will follow up on each of them.  Probably less of a headache to just write the check, but might be educational. ???
Jeff Davis
KRLD
Cherokee 180 N7294W

Comanche pilot

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 10:01:54 PM »
Here is another persons take on the AD. It has some contact information as well for further clarification.
http://www.piperowner.org/forums/topic.html?id=45592
Having just conformed to an AD issue on the stabilator, I feel your pain. It's nice when it's all done and over with. I found the bearings that support the torque tube to be in dire need of servicing. Had I not been removing these components I may have never known their condition. I don't think they were ever serviced in the last 53 years. Walk around preflight and control movement alway felt normal, even after reassembly there was no discernible difference. I like to err on the side of safety. With the cost of hoses I think I would end up replacing them.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 11:55:47 PM by Comanche pilot »
Kevin
PA-24 Comanche
AWO

JeffD

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 09:00:41 PM »
Boy there is way more information out there than I thought possible on such and issue.  I have arrived at what I will call my "totally biased, unprofessional and self-serving conclusion". 

Well, not totally, since I spend a good portion of my days debating with attorneys and studying legal documents, government regulations and various other documents as part of my day job as a banker (problem loans being my specialty), I do have a bit of experience in interpreting the governments language (also with the understanding that any two people in the same government office can have as many as six opinions on the topic).

In reading the AD again, two things jump out at me:


1.  In the Supplemental Information:  One commenter states that the proposal should take into account that the affected airplanes could have oil cooler hose assemblies installed other than those manufactured from Piper. The FAA concurs and has changed the AD to reflect that the AD applies to airplanes with oil cooler hose assemblies that do not meet TSO-C53a, Type D requirements.

2.  In the Applicability section it starts with:   Applicability: The following airplane models (all serial numbers), certificated in any category, that are equipped with oil cooler hose assemblies that do not meet TSO-C53a, Type D requirements:


My conclusion is that if I have Type D hoses (Teflon) which the newer Piper part nos are, the FAA intent is that the AD applies to all hoses that are NOT Type D (see point 1) and that the Applicability excludes from the AD oil cooler hose assemblies are Type D (which mine are).

While I am sure someone can shoot holes in my opinion, and I know it is the AI who has to decide to sign off or not, and notwithstanding the apparent inconsistencies further in the AD.....I believe this DOES NOT APPLY to aircraft whose hoses have been replaced with Type D hoses that are installed within the appropriate parameters of distance and bend angles.  That seems to be the opinion of some in the forums and some in the FAA based on the forum discussions.

Your help in this has been awesome.  We will see if my AI agrees.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:03:45 PM by JeffD »
Jeff Davis
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Cherokee 180 N7294W

Comanche pilot

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 09:23:54 PM »
Cool! It's amazing what and how much information is out there. I'm glad you have the Teflon hoses. There is an AD on the original setup on the Comanche that removes hard pipes for the oil cooler and replaces them with hoses. I made sure we went with Teflon on them as well.
Kevin
PA-24 Comanche
AWO

Wade@AWO

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 07:27:04 AM »
You have a '63 180, so I think your oil cooler is mounted on the front of the engine, right?  If so, unfortunately (as I understand it) with type D hoses you don't have to do the 100-hr inspections, but you still DO still have to replace them every 8 years, even with the teflon.  Here is a pretty good article explaining AMOC's to the AD: 

http://www.avweb.com/news/news/183061-1.html

For airplanes with the oil cooler mounted on the firewall, replacing the hoses with the type D teflon hoses is an AMOC to the AD and don't need replacement after 8 years.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 07:40:15 AM by Wade@AWO »

hotrod150

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 08:55:27 AM »
http://www.avweb.com/news/news/183061-1.html


It looks like the linked bulletin ACE-96-01 answers your specific question in paragraph 2D, although it looks like it contains a typo to me:
".......Both type C & type D hoses must be replaced at 8 years or 100 hours TIS..." (should be 1,000 hours).

JeffD

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 09:39:43 PM »
True and I saw this (as I noted the inconsistency in my last reply).  Guess it goes to show that when the government is involved, only they can determine when your are in the wrong or right as their documents certainly don't give you a clear direction.

It does make one wonder, however....why bother to buy Type D hoses as the 100 hour inspection is simply part of the annual.  Pretty silly if you ask me.
Jeff Davis
KRLD
Cherokee 180 N7294W

hotrod150

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 08:29:57 AM »
I guess the best reason for installing the huigher-grade hoses is that you want the best quality stuff on your airplane, even if you still must comply with the AD.  AD or no, an oil line failing in flight could ruin your whole day.

Dave Wheeler

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Re: Piper PA-28 AD on Oil Cooler Hoses
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2013, 02:37:21 PM »
This is sort of off topic, but Service Bulletin 1006 is the gas tank removal for a corrosion inspections.  It says that while you have the tanks out to go ahead and replace the fuel hoses, both the feed line to the carb, and the rubber vent lines, every 8 years. 

To me, it seems logical that all hoses therefore should be replaced every 8 years.  It is your plane and your family up there, so why be cheap when it comes to a hose that may leak after 8 years?

Dave & Janis Wheeler
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