Please login or register.

TinyPortal - simple content managment for SMF

News: “Flying is like good music: it elevates the spirit and it's an exhilarating freedom. It's not a thrill thing or an adrenaline rush; it's engaging in a process that takes focus and commitment." - Harrison Ford
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: ADS-B verification flights  (Read 1980 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mirafone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110

ADS-B verification flights
« on: January 11, 2017, 08:21:28 AM »
Hi guys,

In a few weeks, I’ll be picking up my plane from Pacific Coast Avionics at Aurora, OR and flying home. On the way home I’m intending to complete the ADS-B verification flight since I’ve got 1 ½ hours of flight time at my disposal.

I have read the FAA and AOPA guidance and have the checklist of circles, climbs and descents and the 10,000’ and towered airport airspace areas of ADS-B coverage, so my question isn’t on that.

I was wondering for those who have done this, what your actual experience was on flying for this ADS-B verification and if anyone did this on an Oregon to WA trip?

Thanks!
David Wyatt

N2408X C182 KPAE
Commercial Pilot ASEL
WPA and AOPA Member

groupw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 961

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 10:35:19 AM »
Sorry I can't help with your question, but I'd appreciate any feedback you can give about your experience with Pacific Coast Avionics. I live close to them so they're a logical choice for my forthcoming ADSB installation. Reply by PM if you'd prefer.

Thanks,
Roy

mirafone

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 10:48:59 AM »
It's sitting on the snowy ramp there now waiting for a GTX-345 and GTN-650, plus some other work, estimated completion at the end of January. Happy to keep you and others informed.

David
David Wyatt

N2408X C182 KPAE
Commercial Pilot ASEL
WPA and AOPA Member

Frank

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1246

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 05:33:39 PM »
I too will be having ADS-B out installed and feedback would great, not about Pacific Coast, but how it worked out for you during your flight.

Pilawt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 614

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 07:27:53 PM »
Take this for what it's worth, but this was my experience -- successful, as it turned out.

Rebate or no, you have to do the maneuvers (not precisely, but enough to test the system) to get a valid ADS-B performance report. To qualify for the rebate, you also have to fly at least 30 minutes in 91.225 airspace (IOW, the airspace in which ADS-B Out will be required after 2020), in addition to getting a valid performance report.

The maneuvers, apparently, don't necessarily have to be in 91.225 airspace.

I flew the entire recommended flight test protocol (over an hour) in Class E airspace, below 10,000', about 40 miles north of Portland near Kelso WA, away from the heavy traffic in the Portland area.

The GAIRS Report came back as a fail -- the equipment passed the performance checks and the flight "met ADS-B Out rule requirements," but "The Performance Monitor could NOT validate that the flight operation consisted of at least 30 minutes in the airspace defined in 14 CFR 91.225. Please ensure the flight meets Program requirements for required flight time in the required airspace."

So I went back up the next day and just did lazy circles for half an hour in Class E airspace above the Portland Class C ceiling, and within the lateral limits of the Class C (flight track below). The GAIRS Report this time came back all green, and a few weeks later my check came in the mail.



My suggestion would be to contact Portland for Flight Following on your way home, and tell them you need to loiter above the Class C for half an hour for ADS-B verification.  They were cooperative with me (if a little bemused).
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix AZ

nelsonfamily

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Gary and Alice

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 08:44:05 PM »
Pacific Coast Avionics did my ADS-B installation. They previously did a complete airplane glass panel installation for me. And they have done a couple major modifications to that panel. Their work has been excellent. Their prices the best I have found. And their service manager, Chris Brand, is quite helpful.

My ADS-B installation worked just fine and continues to do so. We really like having it.

Cabbage

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 262

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2017, 06:18:19 AM »
I must just be lucky.  We had our GTX345 installed at PLU by Spencer Aircraft last May.  I took off, flew over to Gray for a PAR approach, then back by PLU on the way to S50.  Submitted my email for a performance check and it came back OK.  I didn't know about let alone do a recommended profile.  Maybe it didn't exist way back then.  Or like I said, I was just lucky.

hotrod180

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1232
  • Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitutes!

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2017, 08:52:51 AM »
.... you also have to fly at least 30 minutes in 91.225 airspace (IOW, the airspace in which ADS-B Out will be required after 2020).....
I flew the entire recommended flight test protocol (over an hour) in Class E airspace, below 10,000', about 40 miles north of Portland near Kelso WA, away from the heavy traffic in the Portland area....

It's been my understanding that ADS-B out will be required in class A B C & D airspace, as well as within the 30NM mode C veil around certain airports (KSEA included). I thought class E op's were to be exempt??

Pilawt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 614

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2017, 08:58:17 AM »
It's been my understanding that ADS-B out will be required in class A B C & D airspace, as well as within the 30NM mode C veil around certain airports (KSEA included). I thought class E op's were to be exempt??

See FAR 91.225 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225).  ADS-B out will be required in Class A, B and C (not D); the 30-nm Mode C veil; above (but not below) Class B and C areas; and some Class E.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:20:48 AM by Pilawt »
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix AZ

2appraise

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
    • Infinite Air Center

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 10:40:18 AM »
This from a fellow pilot, Richard Kay, out of Albany and his experience.  Please read in entirety.

I hope this post will acceptable to the Admins. It does involve FATPNW and could be of interest to other plane owners who might experience the same things.
I went ahead and bit the bullet and installed the Appareo ESG ADS-B 1099 Transponder. Since my old transponder was failing and since I already owned the Stratus 2S it seemed logical. I went to the FAA rebate page
http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate/
and got my reservation number.
After the installation is when the fun started. I flew three times, each time I sent the required information in and received a failed report each time because the “Detection in Rule Airspace” showed a failure that “The Performance Monitor could NOT validate the flight operation consisted of at least 30 minutes in the airspace as defined in 14 CFR 91.225.
The ADB worked fine, no bad reports, no red boxes on the form.
The rebate form and the AC are in conflict. My Airborne 1099 Analysis Summary showed 51 minutes but the automatic Rule: showed 00:00:00
.
After querying the ADS-B help email I received a reply that states I must fly in either Class A, B, or C or Class E over 10,000 feet for 30 minutes.
[http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/airspace/requirements]
{which is, by the way, the required airspace AFTER 2020, not the for the testing}
I sent back the following information:
According to the AC20-165 B; [regarding the ADS-B testing]
4.3.2 Flight Test Profile. This profile is intended to be flown on all ADS-B system approvals. The profile need not be flown exactly, and variances for ATC clearances and vectors are acceptable. The flight test should be at least 1-hour long. [30minutes from your Rebate reservation form] If the profile is completed in less than 1 hour, continue the flight until enough data is collected.
4.3.2.1 The flight may be accomplished in any airspace that has FAA ADS-B ground station coverage. As of December 1, 2015 the ADS-B ground network is completely deployed across the continental United States etc.
4.3.2.3 Altitude. Fly the aircraft at multiple attitudes throughout the flight within the ADS-B coverage. There is no maximum or minimum altitude required for the flight.
Included in the email: “Also the email I got from the rebate office which included my Rebate Reservation Code paragraph 2 states "For best results, ADS-B validation flights should be conducted within published areas of FAA ADS-B Coverage." I did that flight after consulting the "FAA ADS-B Coverage Map before flying" and I flew in the FAA ADS-B Coverage Area, without a doubt. Most of the time my Foreflight software program was reporting 4 tower reception.
I am requesting that you make my Flight Test PAPR report VALID, since I complied with the FAA guidance that the FAA published in numerous areas.
Please produce a GAIRS Report for me so I can have I can be given an "Incentive Code" since I have complied with ALL the Requirements in the Program Rules.”
After submitting that in another email. I got the following response:
“We have cleared your reservation so you can proceed to the rebate claim. Please go to the Rebate Claim page (https://adsbrebate.faa.gov/RebateClaim.aspx) to complete your rebate request. You will need the Rebate Reservation Number (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) provided in your Rebate Reservation confirmation email, but will not need an incentive code.”
I know this is quite long but if it can save someone else from the multiple flights, numerous emails, it might be worth the space
Infinite Air Center
Albany Municipal Airport - S12
E. thann@InfiniteAirCenter.com | P. 541.730.3345
W. www.InfiniteAirCenter.com | www.RotaxMaintenance.com
www.facebook.com/infiniteaircenter

Pilawt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 614

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 01:17:42 PM »
The algorithms used by FAA to verify compliance are not very precise.  For example, the system apparently counted the time I flew below the floor of Portland's Class C (which is not technically 91.225 airspace) on my departures from and return to KVUO.
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix AZ

hotrod180

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1232
  • Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitutes!

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2017, 10:06:53 AM »
   See FAR 91.225 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225). 
ADS-B out will be required in Class A, B and C (not D); the 30-nm Mode C veil; above (but not below) Class B and C areas; and some Class E.

Here's the ADS-B required airspace, per the linked 91.225:

(1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;

(2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.

Frank

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1246

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2017, 02:44:48 AM »
The posts have been helpful as I was concerned about the flight portion.    Jeff maybe I will get the same results as you as I too will be taking off from Pearson. 2appraise also had info regarding the FAA rebate which I completely forgot about but will pursue.
Very helpful guys and thanks.

Ericpeyton1980

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 12:25:43 AM »
I had the Stratus ESGi installed by Spencer Aviation at PLU in November. The wx has been crap and was finally able to test it out about two weeks ago. Since PLU is my home airport and within the 30 mile range of SeaTac, all I had to do was stay in the air for 30 min. I took a flight to TIW and back and that was it. The system works fantastic and I love it so far! I submitted my request and 30 minutes later, I had a response that said everything was good and it gave me a code. I submitted the code along with my rebate reservation I.D. and the next day I had an email saying the rebate was approved!

It was a very simple process and am glad I installed the system regardless of the rebate. It is crazy to see the amount of traffic the system displays on my iPad. I have only used it 3 times and it already prevented a very close encounter. I was pretty surprised the first time the red bar popped up on my iPad telling me of an aircraft in close proximity.
1964 Cessna 172E

groupw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 961

Re: ADS-B verification flights
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2017, 11:48:13 AM »
My ADS-B is getting installed today and I'll be doing the qualification flight very shortly. I'm based near Portland but don't want to do it above the PDX Class C -- I've gotten flight following whenever I fly over PDX, and there's always quite a bit of big iron traffic and requested diversions. So I'm planning on doing it inside the SeaTac Mode C veil where there isn't too much traffic, maybe somewhere east of PLU or thereabouts. Any recommendations?

Roy
Pages: [1] 2