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Author Topic: Multi Weight Oil for C150  (Read 1929 times)

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N1032M

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Multi Weight Oil for C150
« on: January 05, 2017, 08:37:41 AM »
I purchased a one-owner 1970 C150 3 years ago. There's 400 SMOH on it's third motor and it run's great, using a qt every 6-7 Hrs. Compression is 78psi X 4 at annual. I fly 12 months a year and change the oil at annual (35-50 Hours).

The previous owner always used Aeroshell 100W. I've maintained that, adding Camguard ASL.

Question, now that it's cold, I note the POH recommends 10W30 below 40F. I'm thinking of switching to Aeroshell 15W50.

Good idea or don't fix it if it ain't broke?

Bryan
Roche Harbor

Bryan
Roche Harbor

piperfan

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 08:52:43 AM »
You can also run 80W for PNW winter.

I've never seen an Aeroshell 15w50 used in a 150, I think purely because it's expensive and not required. There is a cheaper option in Phillips 66 X/C 20W50 but it has no additives, so you do need Camguard which brings up to cost of Aeroshell anyway.

How often do you fly this time of year? Either way, for our environment an oil with additives for corrosion as in the Plus versions of 80W+ or 100W+ of aeroshell or the addition on Camguard to Phillips, is recommended. Don't need to add Camguard to the Aeroshell 15w50 or Plus versions, although some do, no harm.

I think you would be ok with Aeroshell 80Wplus version, or 80W with Camguard.

kam
PA28-180E
CZBB, Vancouver, BC

hotrod180

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 09:22:52 AM »
I've had a couple airplanes in which I used Phillips XC20-50 year around. Worked great.
In fact, when I had my C170 engine overhauled with new ECI cylinders, I used it for break-in as per ECI's recommendations.

I use XC20-50 in the winter in my current C180, although I'm probably gonna start using it year around.
One reason is that it's now quite a bit cheaper than Aeroshell W100, which is opposite from the trend in years past.

Apparently Aeroshell 15-50 incorporates the Lycoming LW16702 anti-wear additive, as does Aeroshell W100 Plus.
Probably good stuff, even for Continentals-- but as far as I know that additive is NOT the same stuff as Camguard.

FWIW using a quart of oil every 6 or 7 hours seems high to me for a 400 SMOH engine, although it might be within spec.
Could be the cylinders never broke in properly-- not uncommon, esp with chrome cylinders.

N1032M

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 02:48:39 PM »
On the issue of Oil usage.

When I bought the plane it was flown infrequently and used a quart every 4-5 hours which my A&P said was OK (he flys a 150 as well)

Annual Oil Usage
2014 5.0 Hrs/qt
2015 7.9 Hrs/qt
2016 8.3 Hrs/qt

From the POH:
Minimum 4 qts
For normal flight fill to 5 qts
For extended flight (>3hrs) fill to 6 qts

I put half a quart in when I get down to 4 otherwise you just paint the belly with oil. The C150 aerobat model has a different breather tube with a longer pickup to reduce oil loss thru the breather.
Bryan
Roche Harbor

groupw

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2017, 03:57:56 PM »
I've used Phillips X/C 20w50 year-round in my 150 for more than 1000 hours, and it's done very well.

After having some cylinders rebuilt some time ago my oil consumption went from its normal 15-20 hours/qt up to 5 hours/qt. Compression and everything else was fine. When those cylinders were removed some time later I discovered that an oil ring had been broken apparently when installing one of the rebuilt cylinders, and that was the cause of the high oil consumption. The plugs in that cylinder were a little blacker than the others but not extremely so.

Roy

jeredp

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2017, 06:13:38 PM »
Just pulled my o-300 apart after 1,000 hrs of using aeroshell w80 and i it was clean and sludge free. Check your type certificate data sheet for recomended oil. I'm personaly not a fan of multi weight oil for these engines, but everyone has their own opinion and successes. I do think that if you use straight weight, it is important to match the weight with the environment(temperatures). No matter what, change it often! You can change your oil for less thn a tank of gas.
1956 C-172
8S2

hotrod180

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2017, 06:34:23 PM »
I see where 50-hour changes are recommended with oil filters, but even on my airplanes which had them I went with 35 or 40 hour changes.
Any more than that & the oil looked too used and wasn't slippery / clingy enough for me.
I go 30 hours with the 180 now which only has a screen.

Tom-D.

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2017, 07:53:44 PM »
Question, now that it's cold, I note the POH recommends 10W30 below 40F. I'm thinking of switching to Aeroshell 15W50.

Good idea or don't fix it if it ain't broke?

Bryan
Roche Harbor


Bad idea, 15W50 has the additive TSP, which is a polishing agent, this will ruin the starter clutch of the key start type starter. I Phillips 20W50 year around.

Read and understand the terms used when talking about oil.  "oil talk for dummies"

http://eci.aero/pdf/BreakInInstructions.pdf

hotrod180

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2017, 10:37:21 PM »
http://eci.aero/pdf/BreakInInstructions.pdf


Thanks for posting the link, this should be required reading.
This appears to be an enhanced version of the break-in instructions that came with my new ECI cylinders back in 2001.
I didn't see anything about not using it in a key-start O-200, but they do caution against using Lycoming additive LW-16702 in certain engines during break-in. This is the additive in Aeroshell 15-50 and W100+.

N1032M

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2017, 07:04:08 AM »
Tom-D:

I read the Oil for dummies and also googled the starter issue for Continentals. It appears that Japanese Motorcycles have the same issue.

You say you use Phillips 20W50 year round, as does groupw. Are you flying a 150?

Thanks to all,
Bryan
Roche Harbor

Domenick

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2017, 08:04:27 AM »
I have heard many times that the additive in Aeroshell 15W50 is the same as Camguard. Not so, according to Ed Kollin the developer of Camguard. As a point of information concerning Camguard, below are a number of collected posts by Ed Kollin:

Camguard can be thought of conceptually as the additive package I designed for Exxon. After I left Exxon, Greg Merrell from Aircraft Specialties asked me if I could develop an additive supplement with the same performance characteristics as those in what I done for Exxon. It took a year to reformulate what is now Camguard. It is substantially better than what I did for the Elite and it does not share any ingredients for legal reasons.

Because Exxon decided to copy the Aeroshell 15W-50, a obvious opportunity opened up before me.

Camguard contains 25 time the concentration of rust inhibitor(s) as Aeroshell 15W-50 or Elite. In Exxon's own ASTM 1748 Humidity cabinet corrosion testing Elite only demonstrates 4+ 2 days while the Aeroshell measures 2+ 1.5 days. Exxon claims Elite provides twice the protection as the Aeroshell. Camguard provides 18+9 days and while directionality is indicated, the ASTM1748 test method repeatability is horrible, which is why I do not use it.

=================
Camguard does not contain phosphate esters such as TCP. Phosphate esters hydrolyze (decompose in the presence of heat, metal and water, such as found in a crankcase) to form oil soluble phosphoric acid derivatives, which attacks copper and silicone seals (seal weeping).

Lycoming utilized TCP (now butylated triphenyl phosphate {bTPP}) in an effort to shift the liability for their scuffing/spalling cam/lifter problem to consumers. The problem is that "dry" scuffing is not the problem, corrosive pitting through the carburized hardened cam surface is. Rust on hardened surfaces such as cams and lifters is not uniform as it is on mild steel, it forms deep pits. Pitting lead to stress risers that leads to spalling failure.

With the scuffing AD and phosphate ester use so prevalent as it is, there should not be a single valve train failure, but I have not seen a decrease in the incidence of spalling failures in ten years.

=============
Camguard is not accepted for use in turbcharged aircraft engines. We designed a certification plan with the FAA but after submitting our data after 3 years (including turbocharges), which showed the best results on record our acceptance came without turbocharger approval and we were shocked. It appears some FAA people felt they should have been consulted.

Though it is not accepted for use in turbocharged engines fully one third of our sales are to people with turbocharged aircraft.

=============
I was directly involved in the disassembly of the Aeroshell 15W-50. I was in the room when we were informed that Elite would be an "advanced copy" (cheaper) of the Aeroshell 15W-50 and not a step out technology product. It only has 26% PAO synthetic base stock as compared to 50% in the Aeroshell. I left Exxon AFTER the Elite testing was complete and it was ready for release.  My comments on rust test were meant to show that there is barely a significant difference between the Elite and the Aeroshell. They both contain 0.05% of a ferrous metal rust inhibitor. This is all they can use of that type without running into other problems. Exxons is just a little better than Shells. Camguard uses different technology.

============
            Aeroshell 15W-50   /   Exxon Elite
PAO synthetic base stock      50%   /   26%
Dispersant (nitrogen)         3%   /   3%
vicosity modifier (standard)   5%   /   5% Viscosity modifier (dispersant)
Phosphate ester antiscuff      1%   /   1.5%
Rust inhibitor            0.05%   /   0.05%
Yellow metal inhibitor      0.05%   /   0.05%
Anitfoam               trace   /   trace

The other 40% of Aeroshell 15W50 and 65% of Exxon Elite are a blend of brightstock (heavy base stock) and solvent 600N (medium weight basestock). They are the mineral base stocks blended in proportion to meet the required viscometrics.

==================
I have an IO-520. I use Phillips 20W-50 in the fall winter and spring. I use Aeroshell W100 in the summer. Of course I use Camguard in both. I am in NJ.

There is no benefit to using W100 Plus with Camguard over W100 with Camguard. However, if you ARE using 100 Plus, Camguard mitigates the aggressiveness of the W100 Plus's phosphate ester antiscuff towards seals.
__________________
Edward Kollin
Technical Director - Aircraft Specialties Lubricants
Makers of CamGuard
http://www.aslcamguard.com
Domenick
PA-28-161
Snohomish, WA, Harvey Field, S43

Tom-D.

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2017, 08:31:38 AM »
Tom-D:

I read the Oil for dummies and also googled the starter issue for Continentals. It appears that Japanese Motorcycles have the same issue.

You say you use Phillips 20W50 year round, as does groupw. Are you flying a 150?

Thanks to all,
I currently do not own a 150, but in the past I've owned 4, and serviced many more as the local A&P-IA I am privy to who is changing what.
Most all the TCM engines that have a key starter have a friction clutch to connect the starter to the engine, the use of extreme pressure oils cause this to slip. the owners then believe the starter has failed. and change it out.
 Lycoming actually has a SB that warns against using it in any of their engines that use a friction clutch
The early TCM engines that use the pull type starter that you engage two gears to crank the engine are not effected by using EP oils.  that's the C-65 C-85, 0-200-A and the C-145 and 0-300-A

N1032M

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2017, 01:28:35 PM »
Thanks Tom for the authoritative answer. This is why I post on this forum, for both the expertise and local knowledge.
Bryan
Roche Harbor

Old School

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2017, 08:45:44 PM »
I have been using Aeoshell 15-50W in both my Cub (A-65) and my C-170B (O-300A) since the 80's with no issues at all.
On a side note, both a/c have oil sump pad heaters and I preheat at 50 degrees F or lower.
1929 Fleet 1
1945 J-3C65
1953 C-170B
SK-64 Skycrane

Tom-D.

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Re: Multi Weight Oil for C150
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2017, 09:22:22 PM »
I have been using Aeoshell 15-50W in both my Cub (A-65) and my C-170B (O-300A) since the 80's with no issues at all.
On a side note, both a/c have oil sump pad heaters and I preheat at 50 degrees F or lower.
neither has a key starter.
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