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Author Topic: Paine 037 transition  (Read 2241 times)

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N804RV

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Paine 037 transition
« on: January 12, 2016, 09:52:39 PM »
Went up to do the LOC 34 approach into KAWO today.  Taking off from KPAE 16L, I knew things would be happening quick.  But, little did I know just how quick I'd get blown into the weeds.

My departure clearance was to maintain runway heading and climb to 2000.  I contact act approach about a mile south of KPAE and was cleared "direct paine, cross PAE at 2000, fly the Paine 037 transition, cleared for the localizer 34 approach."  That bit about the Paine 037 transition completely caught me off guard.  I knew that PAE was the IAF, and I knew my track would be 037 from PAE to intercept the localizer.  But, I really didn't get the whole transition thing till later.  I know it shouldn't be a big deal.  But, this threw me for a loop and took me a minute to get it all sorted out.  With a strong tail wind I blew right past the VOR before I finally got it all dialed in. 

Anyone else get told to "fly the Paine 037 transition'?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 09:57:03 PM by N804RV »
Ken W.
Mount Vernon, WA

PP ASEL, Complex, High Perf and Tailwheel endorsements.
RV-8 Empennage Kit mostly finished
         Wings in work

ErikU

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2016, 12:21:22 AM »
Never heard of the transition..  and that missed from PAE 16 to AWO 34 is a stress test I fly often.

Sure makes real IFR flight seems easy after that.

BE-35 'S' Bonanza - Seattle - BFI

BruceAir

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2016, 01:31:51 PM »
It's the charted transition on the approach chart. I don't see anything unusual in the clearance.
-Bruce
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KBFI/A36/Extra 300L

N804RV

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2016, 02:43:58 PM »
It's the charted transition on the approach chart. I don't see anything unusual in the clearance.

I get what you're saying.  And, I understand the use of the terminology.  But, it just caught me off guard as I'd not heard that phraseology used before in reference to a published approach segment.  When I heard "transition" I just for an instant wondered if I'd somehow missed a new published departure transition for the Paine3.

Thanks for the input Bruce.  I'm a low time pilot and not quite ready for the instrument check-ride.  But, even my CFII said he'd expect to hear that phraseology associated with published departure or arrival procedure and not an instrument approach segment (PAE is an IAF for that approach).
Ken W.
Mount Vernon, WA

PP ASEL, Complex, High Perf and Tailwheel endorsements.
RV-8 Empennage Kit mostly finished
         Wings in work

BruceAir

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2016, 03:44:22 PM »
Although "transition" is usually associated with DPs and STARs, you may hear "transition" (it's really a feeder route) or, more commonly, a clearance to a specific named fix on the chart, followed by an approach clearance.

For example, when I fly the LOC Rwy 34 or RNAV Rwy 34 approach at KAWO, approaching from the south, I typically get a clearance like:

"Bonanza 46F, cross SAVOY at 2000, cleared xxx runway 34 approach."

Or

"Bonanza 46F, cleared direct Paine VOR."

....

"Bonanza 46, cross Paine at 2000, cleared LOC runway 34 approach..." (the expectation here, absent any other ATC instructions, is that you'll cross PAE and fly the charted transition/feeder route on the 037 radial to join the localizer).

For more information, see Approach Clearance (p. 3-22)  and Feeder Routes (p. 4-43) in the Instrument Procedures Handbook.



-Bruce
www.BruceAir.com
KBFI/A36/Extra 300L

hotrod180

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2016, 09:02:29 AM »
......  I contact act approach about a mile south of KPAE and was cleared "direct paine, cross PAE at 2000, fly the Paine 037 transition, cleared for the localizer 34 approach." .....

I'm not an IFR pilot, but I would assume that this means to fly direct to Paine Field (KPAE), then cross the Paine VOR (PAE) at 2000.  Then, since I believe the VOR is north of the airport grounds (on the roof of one of the Boeing plant buildings in fact), you would be crossing the VOR northbound then turning to a 037 heading?

kzadora

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2016, 04:06:19 PM »
Although "transition" is usually associated with DPs and STARs, you may hear "transition" (it's really a feeder route) or, more commonly, a clearance to a specific named fix on the chart, followed by an approach clearance.

For example, when I fly the LOC Rwy 34 or RNAV Rwy 34 approach at KAWO, approaching from the south, I typically get a clearance like:

"Bonanza 46F, cross SAVOY at 2000, cleared xxx runway 34 approach."

Or

"Bonanza 46F, cleared direct Paine VOR."

....

"Bonanza 46, cross Paine at 2000, cleared LOC runway 34 approach..." (the expectation here, absent any other ATC instructions, is that you'll cross PAE and fly the charted transition/feeder route on the 037 radial to join the localizer).

For more information, see Approach Clearance (p. 3-22)  and Feeder Routes (p. 4-43) in the Instrument Procedures Handbook.

Except that here PAE is marked as initial approach fix, so the segment between PAE and SAVOY is not a feeder but initial approach segment, correct? So calling it a "transition" would be a bit confusing for me too.

It also seems unnecessary. If I am cleared direct PAE and PAE is an IAF, then "Cessna XYZ, cleared direct Paine, cross Paine at 2000, cleared Arlington LOC 34 approach" gives you everything you need to fly the procedure?

N804RV

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2016, 05:07:36 PM »
......If I am cleared direct PAE and PAE is an IAF, then "Cessna XYZ, cleared direct Paine, cross Paine at 2000, cleared Arlington LOC 34 approach" gives you everything you need to fly the procedure?

Thats what I thought too.  But, its not a big deal.  I just got flustered for a few seconds.  Not the first, or last, time that'll happen, I'm sure!
Ken W.
Mount Vernon, WA

PP ASEL, Complex, High Perf and Tailwheel endorsements.
RV-8 Empennage Kit mostly finished
         Wings in work

BruceAir

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2016, 07:22:08 AM »
A an approach clearance with instructions to cross PAE is sufficient. AIM 5-4-6 Approach Clearance describes what you should do and what ATC expects, absent any other instructions. The controller was probably just trying to be helpful.

Here's what the IPH says about Feeder Routes (p. 4-43):

Quote
Feeder Routes
By definition, a feeder route is a route depicted on IAP charts to designate routes for aircraft to proceed from the en route structure to the IAF. [Figure 4-30 ] Feeder routes, also referred to as approach transitions, technically are not considered approach segments but are an integral part of many IAPs. Although an approach procedure may have several feeder routes, pilots normally choose the one closest to the en route arrival point. When the IAF is part of the en route structure, there may be no need to designate additional routes for aircraft to proceed to the IAF.

When a feeder route is designated, the chart provides the course or bearing to be flown, the distance, and the minimum altitude. En route airway obstacle clearance criteria apply to feeder routes, providing 1,000 feet of obstacle clearance (2,000 feet in mountainous areas).

PAE is a point on two airways (V287 and V23), so in this case, I think the charted route via the PAE 037 radial qualifies as feeder route. PAE also happens to be an IAF (see above). It's not uncommon to see this configuration.
-Bruce
www.BruceAir.com
KBFI/A36/Extra 300L

dobiehawk

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2016, 09:13:47 AM »
When in doubt, speak up! Seattle approach is always very easy to work with. They will be more then happy to make sure all goes smooth.
Jim Simon CFI CFII
KRNT

luvflyin

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 11:35:43 AM »
Like has already been said, the controller used excessive verbiage.  To play the devils advocate here though, on a flight that short where there is really no enroute phase, the approach briefing should be done before you depart and that 037 thing should be no surprise
Mike G

Lee D

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 05:21:44 PM »
Ken,

I'm curious what flight plan you filed.  I tried to look up your flight plan via FlightAware for N804RV, but didn't find an entries, and none of the other KPAE-KAWO flights I saw made any sense.  I ask not because I think it somehow relates to using the word transition or not, I'm just curious why they sent you to the PAE VOR.  I do KPAE-KAWO IFR every couple of months and think I've only been routed to the PAE VOR once, and that flight started out strange from the beginning.  They initially sent me west after taking off from 16L, so coming back east via the PAE VOR made sense to me.  I usually file a route of simply SAVOY.   I am always asked what approach I want and how it will terminate.  I will ask for either the localizer or RNVAV, then the termination part really varies depending on what else I"m doing that day.  But other than that one time, I don't think the PAE VOR has ever come up.  Training wise, I think using the VOR as the IAP has it's advantages.  I've considered asking for, but never have.
Lee, Renting, 172, PAE

N804RV

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 09:28:38 PM »
LeeD, I filed PAE in the routing, and it just happened to be convenient for the controller. It was a training flight. I was in N24529. N804RV was reserved for my RV-8. But, I've let it lapse. I'm gonna try for a different N# when I register.
Ken W.
Mount Vernon, WA

PP ASEL, Complex, High Perf and Tailwheel endorsements.
RV-8 Empennage Kit mostly finished
         Wings in work

Lee D

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2016, 09:58:48 PM »
Good to know.  I'm not sure how I got into the habit of filing SAVOY as the route, but I've been doing it that way for years.  All of my IFR flights are essentially training/currency, with the vast majority between PAE and AWO (with BFI and PWT).  But just to be wild and crazy I'm going to file via the PAE VOR next time.
Lee, Renting, 172, PAE

N804RV

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Re: Paine 037 transition
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 05:33:42 PM »
They're likely to clear you direct SAVOY unless you ask to begin at PAE. I think the other day was a fluke.
Ken W.
Mount Vernon, WA

PP ASEL, Complex, High Perf and Tailwheel endorsements.
RV-8 Empennage Kit mostly finished
         Wings in work
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