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Author Topic: FAA publishes new Advisory Circular on Airworthiness Approval of ADS-B out  (Read 1699 times)

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Wombat

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ADS-B installs are no longer required to be treated as a major alteration.

You can read more about it here: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2015-12-23/faa-releases-revised-ads-b-advisory-circular
You can read the AC here: http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-165B.pdf
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Avionics

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I was wondering when this would show up. I was going to put up a link, but decided against it, after I read it.

Great preamble to that Advisory Circular, ain't it?

Problem is, it is very misleading.

Then I read it. My mind went numb. After a couple of days, I read it again...... and I failed to see what's changed.

Contacted my Avionics Legal Rep in Washington DC. He agreed. No change, AT THIS TIME. He is waiting for "Policy Guidance" from the FAA, on how they will handle this. He has been waiting for a while, and has no idea when he will get it.

The bottom line is that all (currently) certified ADS-B systems require a Flight Manual Supplement. This alone constitues a Major Alteration. You cannot alter a POH, with a logbook entry.

That is just one point of many issues. I haven't even got started on the technical stuff yet.

If any of you have a difference of opinion, I'd love to hear it. But if you haven't read the Advisory Circular...... and UNDERSTAND IT..... Then you're on shaky ground. Please post your own findings here, but also reference it, so other can follow your reasoning.
I own Avionics Shop, Inc., at KTIW.... call me Crazy Dan!

groupw

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How about planes like mine (Cessna 150G) which doesn't have a POH?

Roy

Avionics

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Not even a Pilot's Guide? I thought every plane had at least a Pilot's Guide.....  which is the POH for that plane?

In any case, then the paperwork that supplied with the installation becomes your P.O.H. as it applies to the ADS-B installation only.
I own Avionics Shop, Inc., at KTIW.... call me Crazy Dan!

groupw

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There is an Owner's Manual that applies to all Cessna 150Gs, but no individual POH that's assigned to the particular aircraft. I don't know when individual POHs became required, but it was after 1966 when my plane was manufactured.

So you're saying that all mods and STCs documented in the appropriate engine and airframe logs constitute a POH? Or is there something special about the ADS-B installation? Does this "POH" have to be carried in the aircraft like the standard POH of a newer airplane?

Roy

Avionics

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No. I'm saying that "Approved Flight Manual Supplements" need to be carried on board the aircraft. These AFMS are usually inserted into the POH, and becomes an official part of the POH. Not 337's or STC's. An STC can require a AFMS to be generated for that plane because of the equipment installed.

The owners manual, if it has airspeeds, weight and balance information, and other various important information relating to that specific aircraft, then that is probally your POH.

Are ADS-B installations "special"? Yes. You would not believe the programming that goes into each installation, the programming is unique to that specific plane. It's a real pain. Some ADS-B are easy to program, some we now try to avoid, because we can spend hours trying to program one. THey are not "Slam Dunk" installations, by a long shot. Some even require specific antenna spacing between the existing transponder and the ADS-B equipment.

Hope this helps.
I own Avionics Shop, Inc., at KTIW.... call me Crazy Dan!

Avionics

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OK !!! After the Avionics Convention, and some extra clarafications from all parties involved. I think I have it figured out.

For a Minor Alteration, the following must be complied with.

Approved Data must be available. The information associated with a STC can be used, even if your aircraft is not specified on the AML. You can use the data to install the equipment.

Permission to use the STC is required. Most "Off the wall" (non-Garmin) equipment, usually comes with a permission statement stating that it's OK to use it.

No FLight Manual Supplement. (Kind of rare.)

Logbook entry made, and weight and balance updated.
I own Avionics Shop, Inc., at KTIW.... call me Crazy Dan!

Avionics

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If the equipment you want to install requires a Flight Manual Supplement. Then the following must be done.

Approved Data must be available. The information associated with a STC can be used, even if your aircraft is not specified on the AML. You can use the data to install the equipment.

Permission to use the STC is required. Most "Off the wall" (non-Garmin) equipment, usually comes with a permission statement stating that it's OK to use it.

Because you are altering the POH with the Flight Manual Supplement, a FAA Form 337 is required. Fill in the blanks, then ALSO reference the FAA Policy letter in the original post of this thread. Get a IA, or your freindly Avionics Guy to sign off on it.

Do a logbook entry, update the weight and balance. Send the 337 in the mail, keep a copy for the planes records. No FAA Field Approval is required.
I own Avionics Shop, Inc., at KTIW.... call me Crazy Dan!

Avionics

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Having said all that, I have one little reminder from a previous post..........

Are ADS-B installations "special"? Yes. You would not believe the programming that goes into each installation, the programming is unique to that specific plane. It's a real pain. Some ADS-B are easy to program, some we now try to avoid, because we can spend hours trying to program one. THey are not "Slam Dunk" installations, by a long shot. Some even require specific antenna spacing between the existing transponder and the ADS-B equipment.

We have just about installed all that there is available for ADS-B equipment. There seems to be this one little bugaboo. The cheaper the ADS-B system is....... The programming is a real headache. or nightmare. The more expensive systems, the programming (for us) is a breeze.

Hope this all helps.
I own Avionics Shop, Inc., at KTIW.... call me Crazy Dan!

rosenfec

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There is no POH for the Ercoupe 415C, and none is required under its CAA certificate.
Chuck Rosenfeld
Ercoupe N99601

hotrod180

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I find it hard to believe that the Ercoupe doesn't have something listing the operating limitations.
Remember  "A-R-R-O-W", which must be carried in the airplane? The O stands for operating limitations. 
Some airplanes have all the required info in the POH or the owners manual.
My C170 & C180 each had a factory issued sheet of these operating limitations, which was titled the Airplane Flight Manual (or AFM).
My C180 AFM includes engine rpm limits, fuel requirements, engine instrument requirements, a bunch of airspeed limits (VNE, etc),
G limits, max weight, CG range, some operating notes, and a list of required placards. It takes up one full page.

Skyking3286

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The Aeronca Chief and Champ don't have a PIO.... all the information you need is on a couple of required placards.  Mainly Vne.    If you want operation limitations, go to the TC.